tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post1178808670602154379..comments2023-06-26T10:09:35.761+01:00Comments on Alice in Galaxyland: Leave us alone!Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-23774845428754046622012-07-10T13:38:59.499+01:002012-07-10T13:38:59.499+01:00I cannot believe it, this post is from 2012!
So NO...I cannot believe it, this post is from 2012!<br />So NOTHING has changed since I was young - some nice, but unhelpful lookers-on, a lot of harrassers - and a gruesome number of victim-blamers.<br />I began to show my disabilities when I came of age/got to a university town, and as I was never heterosexual, this reduced the problem for me (but I am greyhaired now, and still not perfectly out of the risk to be singled out as the next victim!)<br />So - for each reader who shares this problem:<br />1. attend a selfdefence class.<br />2. with this group, and with nice friends, try to find out which behaviour you can shrug off, and where are your limits.<br />3. determine if you have the energy to report each, or a few incidents to the police and the conductor´s nonreaction to the traffic authority (if he could not throw the gang out of the train, he could have stayed with you)<br />4. the laws are much more useful than what was in the 1970ies, but a lot of these are not consistently enforced.<br />Get information where which law or rule applies, and how to find the correct adress for a report.<br />5. Can you have a specialized lawyer? There should be some, at least in London - in my time it was the most civil among the very big cities. But still exhausting for my taste.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-53006546225890992032012-06-22T21:47:33.156+01:002012-06-22T21:47:33.156+01:00Many thanks again everyone. I'm reading and th...Many thanks again everyone. I'm reading and thinking about every one of these comments, even if I don't respond directly.<br /><br />I want to share some great stuff I've been sent . . . <br /><br /><a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/bluecollaratheist/2012/06/22/the-funny-thing-about-sexual-harassment-and-then-the-unfunny-thing/" rel="nofollow">A freethoughtblog from a male perspective</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/2012/06/endshday/" rel="nofollow">End SH day, in Egypt, from a week or so ago</a><br /><br /><a href="http://livingheartbeat.com/safety-the-right-all-how-to-protect-it/" rel="nofollow">Safety, the right for all, and how to protect it</a> from someone who read this blog. Thank you so much!Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14217937730862636923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-63995009961772904462012-06-22T10:08:14.354+01:002012-06-22T10:08:14.354+01:00Informative blog - I really had no idea this sort ...Informative blog - I really had no idea this sort of thing was so common.<br />I'd like to take up on one point you made about feeling unable to ask for help. I believe most people would be only to happy to help but hold back in case they're misinterpreting what they are seeing. So, if it's just a fear of getting no help and making it worse (I'm guessing here - male, never been there) I'd say go for it. Most bullies WILL back down if challenged so might get them off your back without help anyway.@Cwolnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-53790450301025877512012-06-22T01:32:36.375+01:002012-06-22T01:32:36.375+01:00I'm not sure if anyone has already mentioned t...I'm not sure if anyone has already mentioned this (I've read some comments, not all (there are a lot)) but I wonder what part the media might play in this sort of thing.<br /><br />Bear with me...<br /><br />If you pick up The Scum, then on page 3 there's a topless woman, sometimes with the word "Phwoarrrr" leading her bio. Or the notorious Wail Online features about female child stars being "all grown up". Then could that have an effect on attitudes (especially given that The Scum's readership is predominantly male). <br /><br />Obviously, men that do this sort of thing have a deficiency in social skills and don't reflect all men in general, which Alice has adequately covered. But with the absolute authority of someone who has studied cultural studies for ONE whole year*, I would say that some of that attitude comes from either similarly minded fathers, or from similar social groups that are yet to embrace even the twentieth century, help to construct these ideas in people. But, from what Alice has described and from what I have witnessed myself, I think that cultivation theory applied to media is relevant. <br /><br />Obviously, I am in no way excusing individuals or even groups that behave in this manner - I'd probably put myself in the group Alice mentioned of people that are made to feel more uncomfortable or intimidated by men that cat-call in public - but I think that as well as them just being twats - and they are twats - it's worth asking what is cultivating these ideas - the idea that women are collective property - that they hold, given that that social groups, businesses, and even governments are making such progress in actually noticing 'oh, yeah, that's a person', what is it that is still holding some individuals in a 18th century timelock?<br /><br />Apologies if most of that has been covered. See footnotes<br /><br />*This piece of text was a joke<br />**All of this was written following a glass^ of wine<br />^A bottleAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08719706748852336711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-33328091128318690442012-06-22T01:11:27.918+01:002012-06-22T01:11:27.918+01:00Xan's comment made me tear up and it also made...Xan's comment made me tear up and it also made me wonder if there are any blog posts on this topic from a man's point of view. I've never seen any and I really think there should be, it would be extremely valuable and very helpful for so many different reasons. After all, it's not just women who have this awful problem to put up with, men who take no part in the horrible things described in Alice's post are effected by what happens too :-(@Stellar190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-81999524450132673142012-06-22T00:23:42.670+01:002012-06-22T00:23:42.670+01:00Awwwwww . . . :-(
If it wasn't already obviou...Awwwwww . . . :-(<br /><br />If it wasn't already obvious, I find most men to be terrific people, and I think the saddest thing about this is seeing innocent men being ashamed. You have no need to feel like that. I don't think of you as one of them. <br /><br />And as Xan says, it's very nice to be part of compliments and pleasantries. I've really enjoyed random conversations, and random smiles. It is so sad when this doesn't happen.Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14217937730862636923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-7415673554373647052012-06-22T00:00:43.243+01:002012-06-22T00:00:43.243+01:00Things like this, frankly, make me renounce whatev...Things like this, frankly, make me renounce whatever maleness I may have. In fact, I actively reject it sometimes. I don't even care what that might make me, I just don't want to be associated with anyone who behaves in the ways you've described here. Or worse, to be grouped as one of them purely because of genetics. Frankly, I've always done my best to avoid these people. Everything about them is upsetting, intimidating, and infuriating all at the same time.<br /><br />And the trouble is that it makes everyone who isn't an insalubrious vociferous moron keep their distance from each other. Men for fear or being mistaken for, and women for fear of drawing attention from one of said morons. You can't say anything nice to anyone anymore. No compliments. No pleasantries. If you try, it's assumed you're some creep who has some ulterior motive purely because you had the guts to say anything at all. And so everyone stays quiet. Everyone loses. <br /><br />Aren't we supposed to have evolved past this garbage by now?Invader Xanhttp://supernovacondensate.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-39315150706060390482012-06-21T18:10:18.287+01:002012-06-21T18:10:18.287+01:00Sammy, your right about one thing, it has everythi...Sammy, your right about one thing, it has everything to do with fear. Abuse comes from fear of powerlessness and loss of control. Abuse is an attempt to gain back that control. <br />A man harassing a woman might as well be shouting "I'm in fear of my manhood!"<br />Alice has every right to post her experiences online. You however have gone to great lengths to continue the harassment she suffers in public to her online activities. <br />Grown up men are self aware and don't feel sexually threatened by every woman they come across. <br />So, by all means, keep blathering Sammy, keep telling us all about yourself. You simply don't realize, every word from you simply makes Alice's point stronger?<br />I'm sorry, did my comments offend you? Did you feel belittled? Well, now you know how Alice feels.deeismenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-54211716563910529462012-06-21T18:06:00.568+01:002012-06-21T18:06:00.568+01:00Update: Sexual harassment myths. Samuel Palin, I r...Update: <a href="http://www.ihollaback.org/resources/myths/" rel="nofollow">Sexual harassment myths</a>. Samuel Palin, I recommend a read.Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14217937730862636923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-28307836887120909372012-06-21T17:57:58.204+01:002012-06-21T17:57:58.204+01:00I also completely agree with K. A. Laity saying &q...I also completely agree with K. A. Laity saying "Random assholes shouting at you on the street is *never* a compliment". That is not an idiotic statement, it is one as simple as "Assault is always wrong", "Rape is always wrong" and "Bullying is always wrong". (If you think otherwise, what's wrong with you?) You want to be complimentary? Smile or say something nice. Don't behave aggressively. It really is that simple.<br /><br />Sadly, because my blog was about the effects rather than the causes of harassment, I've been labelled (on Twitter) as a hysterical nasty man-hating feminist, and subtly framed here as not being interested in causes. I have nothing to say to that besides a rather impatient sarcastic remark to the effect that I can't actually cover an entire subject in one blog post.<br /><br />That someone is trying to impress their mates rather than threaten women is no excuse, and it shouldn't be treated as one. You might as well say that all but the leader of a gang of bullies are innocent. It's still about power. It's still about belittling someone else in order to look bigger. I'm certainly not asking these people to be condemned forever, just that they learn rather than that they keep getting away from it because a bystander feels sorry for them.<br /><br />Anonymous - I am really sorry to hear about the nastiness you suffer as a F to M transexual. That is very sad, and I never knew that happened, but on reflection, I guess it's not surprising. If I ever see it, I hope I'll be able to challenge it!Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14217937730862636923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-81762015842210897922012-06-21T16:44:57.371+01:002012-06-21T16:44:57.371+01:00I completely fail to see where I belittled a large...I completely fail to see where I belittled a large chunk of domestic abuse, since I said "certainly not always", and did not say whether the victims were male or female. <br /><br />I'm also noticing you're ignoring the large number of incidences where the threatening man was on his own, and rather than shouting to impress, came RIGHT UP TO ME, inches away, and spoke right into my face and demanded that I do as they said. That's happened to me nearly as many times as being shouted at from someone in front of other men.Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14217937730862636923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-54146602551446102082012-06-21T16:33:26.511+01:002012-06-21T16:33:26.511+01:00Alice: no, I read the whole piece, and I don't...Alice: no, I read the whole piece, and I don't think the comment is irrelevant. I think picking apart why catcalling happens is important, and I think belittling a good chunk of domestic abuse is disastrous.<br /><br />Most catcalling is unpleasant, and some abhorrent. But I think a lot of it is less about males wanting to intimidate women, and more about:<br /><br />1) the internal dynamics of male social groups, and a desire the 'fit in'<br />2) men who have grown up with a narrow view of how to interact with women. This often isn't a male problem, but a societal one.<br /><br />I suspect that the vast majority straight men – even those who have catcalled – would rather women were consensually affectionate towards them than afraid of them.<br /><br />Incidentally, to your point:<br /><br />"I suspect some men may worry about asking out a woman they like, for fear of being thought of one of the catcallers."<br /><br />This is certainly the case for me.Samuel Palinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13673507291841548741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-73481743175419323352012-06-21T11:32:55.168+01:002012-06-21T11:32:55.168+01:00I think that respect and equality for women has be...I think that respect and equality for women has been sidelined and parents don't seem to instil a sense of what is "right" in their children compared to a generation ago. I fear that society will continue its downwards dwindle into devolved stupidity. The other problem is artificial social constructs being forced op people, that men are only supposed to socialise with men and women are supposed to socialise with women. People mixing up their peer group and engaging with as many facets of the jewel of life is the key to a greater understanding and appreciation of one another. I've also noticed that people simply don't give a fuck about each other (pardon the French!) and don't want to get involved with issues and problems for possible fear of attention. The other thing I find extremely disturbing is nice or kind behaviour being ridiculed or demonised and being derisively labeled as a "goody-two shoes".Sakibhttp://www.starsurfin.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-30803036788811836602012-06-21T09:34:08.764+01:002012-06-21T09:34:08.764+01:00I'm female to male transsexual. The worse stre...I'm female to male transsexual. The worse street harassment I've suffered have been AFTER starting to live as male. <br /><br />Harassing people on the street is just rude. It doesn't matter who is being harassed it's rude and often cruel and shouldn't happen. My hairy legs, what's in my pants, these things are not the business of random strangers on the street.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-18464753230135390972012-06-20T23:57:48.226+01:002012-06-20T23:57:48.226+01:00Thanks Alice for a great post! Great to hear more ...Thanks Alice for a great post! Great to hear more women speak out against male street-terror.<br /><br />As a (non-macho) male I've personally found macho males very intimidating, they ooze unpredictability & mendacity, pumped up on wanting to prove themselves to their pack, roaming beta-males trying via all the wrong ways to demand respect with fear resulting from intimidation & recklessness.<br /><br />There is a sort of paleolithic innocence in it, men who debase themselves to advertise their incompetence as a plea of desperation or simple follow-the-leader folly. However I was thinking, this strategy must somehow pay off or it would've long ago been bred out of the humans via sexual or other selection?<br /><br />Anyone have any experience of this sort of thing actually working for these types?<br /><br />It's safe to say this is a young male issue. Class or education may play in to it, the examples the children have in their peer or social group are crucial, but probably most of these cases are youths who simply don't know any other way of communication, perhaps taught by peers that interest in the feelings and inner lives of others is "weak" and that they have to pose aggressive to have succes.<br /><br />Most of the posers who do such things are, or will turn out to be, quite nice lads when the shackles of peer-groups loosen and they domesticate into adult society. That's probably where class comes in, if you are not exposed to mainstream society, or end up in prison or in perpetual contact with emotionally immature males (evil to generalize but I'm assuming this happens in male-dominates work-areas like building, truck driving, perhaps finance or some male dominated business even, so above or underneath the normal in which one works with many ), one may turn out to think it normal for an entire life.<br /><br />I live above a cafe and work from home, so I get to follow the dysfunctional lives of others. So happens this cafe is full of unemployable criminals & lifetime drunks during daytime hours (closes at night) and you really get an insight in to the tragedy of being left to your own devices by a society that turns its back on "lost cases". Almost every single thing I hear sounds to me like a cry for affection, help & inclusion, but these people are incapable of expressing these things since they were excluded. Anyways is another issue, if related.<br /><br />Engagement is probably the solution, less youth-boredom, more exposure to social norms and empathic reasoning, basically more exposure to vocal women outside of peer groups.<br /><br />Anyways, very helpful list of ways women may like to be approached. Thanks!<br /><br />As I said to Alice on tweets, I've never myself approached a woman on street ever. Mainly in fear or being "one of those guys". So it's massively true that theses males damage the engagement of others via more benign ways, as also illustrated by a great comment above, this behavior creates atmosphere of fear which self-perpetuates. Feedback loop into terror.<br /><br />I wish I could offer more than humble apologies for my flawed gender. I can very much imagine the feeling of intimidation, even if not ever in the same context (unless bands of beligerent gays start roaming the streets).Miriknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-54832879176464453632012-06-20T21:22:17.343+01:002012-06-20T21:22:17.343+01:00Never fails, there's always one who's clea...Never fails, there's always one who's clearly not actually read the post and is here to say "But you've ignored statistic X (never mind whether or not you actually have) and this irrelevant detail is FAR more important!" / "But there must be some REASON for sexist behaviour" / "But by speaking for women you're making our they're special or something" / "Never mind if a stranger tries to assault you in a crowded space, SOME girls must love that so you must be just picking on men."Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14217937730862636923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-55180759730344147262012-06-20T16:57:40.906+01:002012-06-20T16:57:40.906+01:00"Random assholes shouting at you on the stree..."Random assholes shouting at you on the street is *never* a compliment."<br /><br />Do you speak for all women? I don't think so. Compliments are subjective. I would agree that most probably isn't, but I think the intention of some of it probably is. Universal statements *always* make you look stupid.<br /><br />"And the men who are victims of domestic violence are often so at the hands of their male partners. Read the reports closely."<br /><br />But probably more at the hands of women, since we live in a predominantly heterosexual society? I would be interested if you have data to support that claim. The BCS doesn't really explore it in its data (around p70):<br /><br />http://www.nscfc.com/hosb.pdfSamuel Palinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13673507291841548741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-22696686801480966212012-06-20T16:10:20.982+01:002012-06-20T16:10:20.982+01:00These men are hopeless with women and that is why ...These men are hopeless with women and that is why they act like that. They are inadequate. Sadly Joe Public never has the guts these days. I once chased off teen boys groping and harrassing a young woman on Poole rail station. One hundred onlookers did nothing. I bollocked them after the event. Yes we should be wary of intervening but if we did it a little.more maybe things would get better.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-27953417883474419742012-06-20T15:53:38.265+01:002012-06-20T15:53:38.265+01:00It's interesting to see how street harassment ...It's interesting to see how street harassment seems to happen so much more in London- I lived there for eleven years and found it happened to me on an almost weekly basis, but since moving to Edinburgh eight months ago it has happened to me just once. That's still one time too many but I do wonder why the problem seems to be so much worse in London.<br /><br />Here in Edinburgh it happened when I was walking home from work: as I passed a lapdancing club one drunken punter shouted at me "get yer knickers off". This bothered me partly because, unlike the lapdancers he'd just been leering at, I wasn't being paid to take this abuse, and for him seeing that some women are willing (or desperate enough) to be objectified for money seemed to have made him think that all women are game for a bit of harassment. I can believe that the proliferation of lapdancing clubs does some harm to society, and having to walk past them certainly doesn't make me feel very safe.<br /><br />I still get a bit nervous walking past large groups of drunk men on stag dos and loitering around the lapdancing clubs. This one incident of street harassment was enough to prime me to feel fear around these places. That's one of the most damaging consequences of street harassment: the constant feeling of anxiety, the looking over your shoulder, the panic to make sure you have your keys ready before you get home so you won't be caught scrabbling about for them on your doorstep...<br /><br />One night in London when someone asked me "have you got the time?" I instinctively said "no", put my head down and quickened my walking pace while looking straight ahead. The male asking this question had been about twelve years old, but his (probably) innocent question still induced this anxious response in me. This is how street harassment conditions us to live in fear- it's not fair on us women, and it's not fair on the majority of innocent and respectful men who don't harass women. They should be doing more to stop the minority of street harassers among them from giving them a bad name- such as pulling them up on it, and refusing to defend their actions as "a bit of harmless banter".Elisanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-86580900102866888222012-06-20T15:05:09.490+01:002012-06-20T15:05:09.490+01:00Someone's asked me how women would like to be ...Someone's asked me how women would like to be approached. It varies, but let me say I'm happy with all the following: being smiled at, a random conversation if I'm not obviously busy or going somewhere, a compliment such as that my bag is nice, being looked at (not stared at obsessively), being helped eg if my bag has burst on the floor or whatever, having my conversation with someone interrupted politely if you've got something to say or you're enjoying it, being asked what I'm reading . . . And if such leads to good meaningful conversation then sometimes being asked for my contact details is OK. Not by someone I've exchanged 2 sentences with on the bus though, that's just creepy.<br /><br />(I strongly recommend a look at <a href="http://art.tfl.gov.uk/actsofkindness" rel="nofollow">Acts of Kindness</a> to gain a lot of faith in humanity and encourage nice communication!)<br /><br />I really like random conversations with strangers and have certainly been known to catch their eyes and laugh at their jokes I've overheard. I fear I've also offended some protective parents by smiling at their babies or toddlers. If that's you, sorry :-(<br /><br />Do these make any sense? What do other women think? And other men, about how you'd like to be approached, if at all?Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14217937730862636923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-72881730267153315022012-06-20T14:58:16.599+01:002012-06-20T14:58:16.599+01:00Thank you all for commenting (no astronomy expecte...Thank you all for commenting (no astronomy expected). It means a lot. :-)<br /><br />I'd love to know what's best for both sexes to do, and bystanders. I guess it's something humanity needs to collectively decide.<br /><br />Here's another great link . . . <a href="http://www.teamawot.com/2012/05/29/street-harassment-comebacks/" rel="nofollow">Street Harassment Comebacks</a> (let's see if this HTML works) . . .Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14217937730862636923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-47830599743090402222012-06-20T14:11:23.298+01:002012-06-20T14:11:23.298+01:00You're completely correct in what you say abou...You're completely correct in what you say about victim blaming being a huge problem. I grew up & live in London; but I have to admit that being harassed on the streets has hardly ever happened to me; it used to happen more when I was young and better-looking, but that may have had more to do with the way I carried myself than with looks? <br /><br />Either way, not an excuse, and once is too often, and so on, but personal experience tells me that it doesn't happen regularly to every woman. It hasn't happened to me in years, and I use public transport/walk around outside a lot.<br /><br />one thing I would add though is that harassers in my experience have often been people with evident problems - obviously it's dangerous to judge on appearances only, but I've been yelled at by men who were clearly ill rather than simply aggressive. and that says something about care systems in London.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-61830875607029266322012-06-20T13:56:57.501+01:002012-06-20T13:56:57.501+01:00apologies, i have no questions about astronomy. bu...apologies, i have no questions about astronomy. but i will share this thought, which is pleasingly symmetric if not exactly on-topic:<br /><br />homophobic men are afraid that gay men will treat them the way that they treat women.<br /><br />as to your post, though, i'm really sorry you have to go through that at all and thanks for raising (my) awareness. i'll try and do my part, particularly in cases like you describe on the train where some intervention may help. though that in itself raises the question that, since intervention shouldn't be necessary at all, how helpful can/should one be?<br /><br />n.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-77484725658860611932012-06-20T13:46:17.290+01:002012-06-20T13:46:17.290+01:00Random assholes shouting at you on the street is *...Random assholes shouting at you on the street is *never* a compliment. And the men who are victims of domestic violence are often so at the hands of their male partners. Read the reports closely.<br /><br />Rape culture -- and street harrassment is part of it -- is difficult to fight, but necessary.K. A. Laityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05983280397279864583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-523827246619043163.post-7331088049960283032012-06-20T13:36:06.685+01:002012-06-20T13:36:06.685+01:00I hate it when this happens and mentioning that yo...I hate it when this happens and mentioning that you're married (which I shouldn't feel like I need to do) does not always put men off.<br /><br />I've often wondered if it is worth asking men who do this, or support it in discussions, how they would feel were a large man to do the same thing to them.<br /><br />Also it certainly is not complimentary as a male friend of mine used to get it a lot when he had long hair. It's 'oh look, a female' reaction, nothing more.Catherine Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09811168212489751048noreply@blogger.com